Die schwierige Kunst, das Richtige zu tun
Leo Wallner über österreichische Mentalitätsdefizite und die parapolitische Disziplin des Netzwerkens. Der ÖOC-Präsident und ehemalige Generaldirektor der Casinos Austria AG im Gespräch.
Möchte mit den Olympischen Jugendwinterspielen seine ÖOC-Laufbahn krönen: Leo Wallner. (Fotos: Thomas Böhm)
TT: Was bedeutet es für das ÖOC, dass die ersten Olympischen Winter-Jugendspiele 2012 in Innsbruck stattfinden werden?
Leo Wallner: Die Jugendspiele werden einen Wendepunkt darstellen: Zum ersten Mal in der olympischen Geschichte beschäftigen wir uns auch mit Breitensport. Bei normalen Spielen geht’s immer um Rekorde aller Art und daran wird sich auch in absehbarer Zeit nichts ändern. Bei den Jungen wollen wir das einbremsen und vor allem auch Fairness, Freundschaft, richtiges Verhalten propagieren.
TT: Ist das nicht nur ein frommer Wunsch?
Wallner: Auch wenn es ein Wunsch und wenn er fromm ist – es ist und bleibt ein wichtiger Wunsch. Und wenn zumindest Teile in Erfüllung gehen sollen, dann am ehesten im Rahmen der olympischen Bewegung.
TT: Träumt man als Präsident eines nationalen Komitees davon, als Gastgeber für Spiele zu fungieren?
Wallner: Ja, freilich! Ich kandidiere jetzt noch einmal als Präsident, aber 2012 wird jedenfalls mein letztes Jahr sein, da passen mir die Spiele gut hinein.
TT: Das ÖOC hat 2008 sein hundertjähriges Bestehen gefeiert, Sie sind seit 1990 Präsident. Was macht für Sie die Faszination Olympia aus?
Wallner: Am wichtigsten war mir immer, mit neuen Menschen in Kontakt zu kommen. Sportler sind ganz eigene Typen, sie denken anders als Wirtschaftler, haben andere Werte. Das bedeutet eine große Bereicherung des eigenen Menschenbildes.
TT: Welche neuen Facetten hat Ihr Menschenbild bekommen?
Wallner: Das Menschsein von Sportlern ist ein originäreres als das anderer Leute, insbesondere bei Managern. Gerade in jüngerer Vergangenheit steht bei vielen Managern das Profitstreben in keinem Verhältnis mehr zu ihrem sozialen Verhalten. Dann gilt nur noch der Shareholder Value, weil Manager ja nicht von ihren Mitarbeitern bestellt werden.
Und die internationalen Verflechtungen sind so beschaffen, dass Manager die Mitarbeiter nicht einmal mehr kennen, sich ihnen also nicht als Einzelmenschen verantwortlich fühlen.
Charmant, aber unverlässlich: Leo Wallner über Österreichs Image.
TT: Wie ging es Ihnen 2006, als der berüchtigte Turiner Doping-Skandal ausbrach? Was waren die ersten Gedanken, die Ihnen durch den Kopf gingen?
Wallner: Im Nachhinein kann man das beschönigen und etwas behaupten. Tatsache ist: Ich wusste immer, dass Doping eine große Rolle spielt.
TT: Etwas anderes anzunehmen, wäre ja auch naiv.
Wallner: Dann wäre man fehl am Platz und vielleicht in einem Kloster besser aufgehoben. Man muss sagen, dass da viel unaufbereitet war bei uns Österreichern. Unser Verhalten ist ein besonderes, wir haben bisweilen auch ein spezielles Geschichtsbild.
TT: Reden wir da über unsere unselige Tradition, uns als Opfer zu fühlen?
Wallner: …obwohl wir zu einem gewissen Teil Täter waren! Wir geben – jetzt erst, nach mehr als 60 Jahren! – Bilder zurück… Man glaubt uns nicht, und das kommt nicht von ungefähr. Wir, speziell Ostösterreicher, gelten als charmant, aber unverlässlich. Wir haben den Ruf, erst dann etwas zuzugeben, wenn wir nicht mehr anders können.
TT: Österreich hat einen Mentalitätsmalus?
Wallner: Und der kam in diesem Fall schwer zum Tragen.
TT: Einer der prominentesten Turiner Akteure war der Tiroler ÖSV-Präsident Peter Schröcksnadel. Ihm ist schwerlich ostösterreichischer Charme vorzuwerfen.
Wallner: Den hat er nicht, nein. Er ist ein grader Michl. Ich schätze ihn sehr, weil er ein exzellenter ÖSV-Präsident ist und viel Geld auftreibt. Aber er hat seine Schwächen wie jeder, eine davon ist seine Treue den Sportlern gegenüber. Treue ist schön, aber wenn eine Schweinerei zweimal bewiesen wird, hört sich die Treue auf, wenn man glaubwürdig bleiben will.
TT: Nüchtern betrachtet: Der Kampf gegen Doping ist und bleibt ein Kampf gegen Windmühlen.
Wallner: Man hinkt den Entwicklungen immer nach. Die Frage ist einfach: Geht man unter wie eine Maus in der Milchkanne, oder strampelt man so lange, bis die Milch zu Butter geworden ist? Dann ist man zwar auch nass geworden, aber man kann wenigstens aus der Kanne heraussteigen!
Bin toleranter geworden: Leo Wallner über Leo Wallner.
TT: Verfügen Sie über Sportsgeist?
Wallner: Das hoffe ich. Ich bin ein toleranter Mensch und bemühe mich, fair zu sein.
TT: Worum geht’s beim Sport: ums Gewinnen oder ums Tun?
Wallner: Natürlich geht’s vielen ums Gewinnen. Mir geht’s eher ums Tun. Aber ohne Gewinn – und sei es in Form von Anerkennung – tut man’s nicht.
TT: Die ÖOC-Präsidentschaft ist ein Ehrenamt. Sprechen wir über Ihren langjährigen Beruf: Worum geht es bei Glücksspielen?
Wallner: Um Unterhaltung. Und darum herauszufinden, ob man vom Schicksal begünstigt ist und ohne Leistung zu Geld kommen kann.
TT: Wobei maßgebliche Gewinne ja eine eher theoretische Möglichkeit sind.
Wallner: Es gibt sie. Aber es müssen viele dazu beisteuern, dass wenige viel Geld gewinnen können.
TT: Und letztlich gewinnt immer die Bank.
Wallner: Man muss ehrlich sein: Jedes Vergnügen kostet etwas.
TT: Sie spielen aber selbst nicht?
Wallner: Das ist richtig. Man muss dem Ganzen neutral gegenüberstehen und sich eine Meinung bilden können. Als ich studierte, wollte ich nie in einem Bereich arbeiten, in dem der Mensch süchtig werden kann. Das war eine moralische Frage für mich. Dann habe ich es doch 40 Jahre lang gemacht und viele Schicksale gesehen. Wahrscheinlich gibt es keine Form von Konsum, die nicht zu einem traurigen Schicksal führen kann – für einen selbst oder zulasten der Umgebung.
TT: Sie gelten als Verfechter des staatlichen Glücksspielmonopols.
Wallner: Ja, weil ich glaube, dass sich der Markt über ein staatliches Monopol noch am relativ besten kontrollieren lässt. Ich weiß ja, mit welchen Methoden man den Konsumenten verführt. Bis zu einem gewissen Grad gehört das auch dazu, aber man muss eine Balance zwischen der Verführung zum Konsum und der sozialen Komponente finden.
TT: Bereiten Ihnen strategisches Denken, die Fähigkeit zum Netzwerken persönliche Befriedigung oder erachten Sie das als Handwerk, ohne das es eben nicht geht?
Wallner: Mir ist zugute gekommen, dass ich immer schon politisch bzw. parapolitisch interessiert war. Das hat mir geholfen, zu tun, was ich für richtig hielt: den Betrieb mit einem gewissen Anstand zu führen. Da bedarf es einer ständigen Feinabstimmung, einer Einschätzung dessen, wie sich Partner verhalten werden, das ist ein ständigen Veränderungen unterworfener Prozess – gegenüber den Mitarbeitern, bei den Sozialpartnern, bei der Politik. Macht man Fehler, ist man schnell weg. Macht man es richtig, hält man sich etwas länger. Und darum, was richtig ist, muss man ständig ringen. Das ist nicht nur eine taktische Frage, sondern tatsächlich eine Frage der Einstellung. Man muss aber auch ehrlich sagen: Manchmal ist es so, dass man einen Prozess im Nachhinein mit einer Logik versieht, die währenddessen nicht vorhanden war. Das hängt auch davon ab, wie impulsiv man ist.
TT: Auf die Idee, Sie impulsiv zu nennen, kommen vermutlich nicht viele Menschen.
Wallner: Nein, ich überlege sehr intensiv, ob ich etwas tun soll oder darf – auch bei Dingen, die mich persönlich betreffen. Ich habe meiner verstorbenen Frau immer gesagt: „Du musst etwas öfter durch das Gehirn laufen lassen, bevor du es aus dem Mund lässt.“ Sie hat immer sehr schnell etwas gesagt.
TT: Sind Sie sicher, dass nicht gerade ihre impulsive Art faszinierend für Sie war?
Wallner: Vielleicht, ja.
TT: Hat Glück zu haben und glücklich zu sein etwas miteinander zu tun?
Wallner: Ich halte es mit Napoleon, der einmal über einen General gesagt hat: „Der ist nicht nur gut, der hat auch Fortune.“ Wenn man keine Fortune hat, ist man eingeschränkt in seinen Entscheidungen. Auf der Sonnenseite des Lebens fällt einem alles leichter.
Glück haben und glücklich sein - ohne Fortune geht es nicht, sagt Leo Wallner.
TT: Haben bzw. hatten Sie Fortune?
Wallner: Sehr viel, tatsächlich habe ich zu viel Positives bekommen, das ich gar nicht verdient habe. Also muss man etwas zurückgeben. Vielleicht ist das auch ein Grund dafür, dass ich mich im Sport engagiere.
TT: Entspringt die Überzeugung, etwas zurückgeben zu müssen, einer religiösen Grundhaltung?
Wallner: Ja, schon, ich glaube, dass es da irgendetwas gibt. Wir nennen es halt „Gott“. Ich bin aber liberaler geworden, als ich früher war, das ist unbestritten.
TT: Warum denken Sie, dass Sie vom Schicksal unverdient gut behandelt wurden?
Wallner: Weil ich mich und meine Schwächen kenne. Man muss immer wieder alles in Frage stellen – auch sich selbst.
TT: Machen Sie solche Dinge grundsätzlich mit sich selbst aus?
Wallner: Ja, ich bin ein sehr isolierter Mensch und gern allein. Ich versuche, das Meiste mit mir selbst auszumachen. Ob das gut ist oder nicht, sei dahingestellt.
TT: Kommt es vor, dass Sie einmal fünf gerade sein lassen?
Wallner: Heute öfter als in der Vergangenheit, ich bin jedenfalls gelassener und toleranter geworden, irgendwie auch mir selbst gegenüber.
Zur Person: 
Geb. am 4. 11. 1935 in Amstetten; Welthandels-Studium in
Wien; verwitwet (die Operettensängerin Elisabeth Kales-Wallner starb 2005), drei erwachsene Kinder.
1964–1968 Wirtschaftsberater von Bundeskanzler Josef Klaus (ÖVP); 1968–2007 Generaldir. Casinos Austria AG, seither Vizepräsident des Aufsichtsrats. Seit 1990 Präsident des ÖOC, seit 1998 Mitglied des Int. Olymp. Komitees.
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